North by Southeast

May 25 2005  | Views 9289 |  Comments  (826)
The new findings turn on its head the previous view of the origin of Indians. The earlier view, popular in Indian history books, was that the Indian population came in two waves from the northwest around four or five thousand years ago, displacing the earlier aboriginals, descendents of regional archaic groups. ... Expand

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  Anand Nair posted 2 yrs ago

Sol Invictus Mithras,

I am afraid I was greatly disappointed with your "help".

It was not that I was unaware that right-wing authors (like Serge Trifkovic) do routinely quote Will Durant for political purposes. I had sought the references precisely to check-out the veracity, accuracy and context of these alleged "quotes" of Will Durant.

Your reference to Serge Trifkovic's quote of Will Durant is obviously of no use to me!

It is significant that Serge Trifkovic's own ethical standards fall short of giving references for the quotes -- leaving  you to "guess" the reference! When we are dealing with supposed facts that can easily be verified (if true), why this resort to unreferenced quotes and "guesses"?

As for the other quote, you are relying on an article in the website Vedanta Society of New York! This gives the reference for the highly unlikely quote (of India being "the motherland of our race") as -- "Will Durant, The Case for India, 1930 ed., 4". I was already aware of this quote. Unfortunately, my own enquiries only led me only to the 1920 edition. Is there a 1930 edition? And I could not find the quoted passage at Page 4 (That was what was suggested, right?)

The question remains -- did Will Durant make the statements that some politically motivated texts attribute to him -- and if so, how accurate are the quotes, and what was the context? The fact that no has been able to provide references for over one year (despite my posting this query at Sulekha and at the Will Durant Forum) suggests that quotes these are fake. But I would revise my stand if some one can provide references that I can check up on in the library.

Anand Nair



  Sol Invictus Mithras posted 3 yrs ago

To Anand Nair,

If you're the one who was looking for the references to those 2 Will Durant quotes and you haven't got them yet (I haven't read pages 1 to 67 of this thread, so someone might have already helped you out):

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4649

"Islam’s Other Victims: India", By Serge Trifkovic

QUOTE

In his book The Story of Civilization, famous historian Will Durant
lamented the results of what he termed "probably the bloodiest story in
history." He called it "a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is
that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and
freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from
without and multiplying from within."

END QUOTE

[I'm guessing Trifkovic is referring to the "Our Oriental Heritage" entry in Durant's "The Story of Civilization" series.]

Available from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567310125/qid=1132033740/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-1267020-2030263?v=glance&s=books

 

http://vedanta-newyork.org/articles/vedanta_influence_1.htm

QUOTE

"Let us remember ... that India was the motherland of our race and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages; that she was the mother of our philosophy, mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through Buddha, of the ideals. embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is, in many ways, the mother of us all." (Will Durant, The Case for India, 1930 ed., 4.)

END QUOTE

Available 2nd hand: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0008B09IY/qid=1132033812/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-1267020-2030263?v=glance&s=books

 



  Anand Nair posted 3 yrs ago

Yes, the article by Dr. Richard Conn Henry posted by ooo00ooo is interesting.

The physicist is right that every thing that we can ever know about the universe has to be "mental". If that is so, then there is at least a possibility that in reality only the mind exists. That it is a "mental universe".

What we "think" we are "perceiving" outside of the mind, is actually concocted by the mind, and has no "real" existence. The world could indeed be a mere "virtual reality", in the computer parlance.

To understand this better, let us imagine that we put on virtual reality goggles and a virtual reality suit (dress) that are connected to a computer.

By wearing the goggles, we get to see not the world ahead of us, but the world as the computer software presents on the small video monitors fitted on the goggles. When we move our hands, the sensors on the dress give a feedback to the computer, and the computer will create in the goggles the motion picture of our hand motion.

I can reach out and pick up "objects" in front of me (which does not really exist, but which through the computer program, "appears" in the goggles video, as if this is there). The sensors and electrodes in the computer dress will simulate the experience, as if the object has been picked up. Etc. etc.

That is to say, I get to live in a "virtual world" that the computer software has built for me. A world that does not exist "really" outside the computer.

Virtual reality software is already in vogue and has many applications. The Boeing Simulator is a virtual reality cockpit, where the windscreen is actually a video monitor. The airport runway that the pilot "sees" through windscreen (and also through instruments in the cockpit control panel) is actually computer generated video. Using the simulator, the trainee pilot can "takeoff" from New York and "land" in London several hours later. He gets to fly through clouds, lightening storms etc. Even a fire in one of the engines can be simulated. All this without the simluator cockpit (mounted on a hydraulic structure) "actually" moving out of the simulator room.

It is quite possible that within our brains, we are fitted with a virtual reality software. This is what Dr. Richard Conn Henry suggests. This is also what the Indian concept of "maya" postulates.

But is this so? I would not think so. The reason is that I am able to recognize a "dream state" and "wakeful state".

The difference between the two is that in the dream state the "reality" that my brain software presents before me, is unconstrained -- I can be in Chennai this moment and in New York the next. I can float in air, and see unicorns and flying saucers. I can see an elephant in my room, which when I "wake up", I find not there. When I ask "another person" (whom also I "see"), if he "saw" an elephant, he will "tell" me, "No. But I saw that you were sleeping with your eyes closed. You were dreaming. There is no elephant here." (I get to "hear" this).

In other words, I have a wakeful state when the virtual reality images that my brain creates for me are HIGHLY CONSTRAINED. And I have a dream state when my brain creates for me images that are UNCONSTRAINED.

Now what causes this CONSTRAINT? It is like a virtual reality software where the computer can create images on the video screen, but this being CONSTRAINED by what is in front of web-cam connected to the computer.

It is this fact of CONSTRAINT that makes most scientists to disagree with the philosophical musings of Dr. Richard Conn Henry (and also of the ancients who conceived of the universe being merely "maya").

The fact of constraint makes the "maya" theory highly unparsimonious. It is far simpler to believe that our brain (most of the time) enable us to perceive a real existing world with adequate accuracy (enough to serve our normal purposes).

Whereas both the theories -- real world theory & virtual world theory -- are possible, the former is infinitely more plausible.

Nothing in Quantum Mechanics PRECLUDES the possibility that the universe can exist outside of the mind. It is just that some people (including some scientists) get carried away when they are confronted with situations where our senses (which evolved to survive in the grass lands of Africa) are not upto the task of objectively perceiving certain sub-atomic phenomena.

asnair@gmail.com




  oO0Oo . posted 3 yrs ago

This is interesting:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7047/full/436029a.html
Concept
The mental Universe
Richard Conn Henry1

Richard Conn Henry is a Professor in the Henry A. Rowland Department of Physics and Astronomy, The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland 21218, USA.


Top of pageAbstractThe only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.

Historically, we have looked to our religious leaders to understand the meaning of our lives; the nature of our world. With Galileo Galilei, this changed. In establishing that the Earth goes around the Sun, Galileo not only succeeded in believing the unbelievable himself, but also convinced almost everyone else to do the same. This was a stunning accomplishment in 'physics outreach' and, with the subsequent work of Isaac Newton, physics joined religion in seeking to explain our place in the Universe.

The more recent physics revolution of the past 80 years has yet to transform general public understanding in a similar way. And yet a correct understanding of physics was accessible even to Pythagoras. According to Pythagoras, "number is all things", and numbers are mental, not mechanical. Likewise, Newton called light "particles", knowing the concept to be an 'effective theory' — useful, not true. As noted by Newton's biographer Richard Westfall: "The ultimate cause of atheism, Newton asserted, is 'this notion of bodies having, as it were, a complete, absolute and independent reality in themselves.'" Newton knew of Newton's rings and was untroubled by what is shallowly called 'wave/particle duality'.

The 1925 discovery of quantum mechanics solved the problem of the Universe's nature. Bright physicists were again led to believe the unbelievable — this time, that the Universe is mental. According to Sir James Jeans: "the stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the Universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter... we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter." But physicists have not yet followed Galileo's example, and convinced everyone of the wonders of quantum mechanics. As Sir Arthur Eddington explained: "It is difficult for the matter-of-fact physicist to accept the view that the substratum of everything is of mental character."

In his play Copenhagen, which brings quantum mechanics to a wider audience, Michael Frayn gives these word to Niels Bohr: "we discover that... the Universe exists... only through the understanding lodged inside the human head." Bohr's wife replies, "this man you've put at the centre of the Universe — is it you, or is it Heisenberg?" This is what sticks in the craw of Eddington's "matter-of-fact" physicists.

Discussing the play, John H. Marburger III, President George W. Bush's science adviser, observes that "in the Copenhagen interpretation of microscopic nature, there are neither waves nor particles", but then frames his remarks in terms of a non-existent "underlying stuff". He points out that it is not true that matter "sometimes behaves like a wave and sometimes like a particle... The wave is not in the underlying stuff; it is in the spatial pattern of detector clicks... We cannot help but think of the clicks as caused by little localized pieces of stuff that we might as well call particles. This is where the particle language comes from. It does not come from the underlying stuff, but from our psychological predisposition to associate localized phenomena with particles."


Proof without words: Pythagoras explained things using numbers.
In place of "underlying stuff" there have been serious attempts to preserve a material world — but they produce no new physics, and serve only to preserve an illusion. Scientists have sadly left it to non-physicist Frayn to note the Emperor's lack of clothes: "it seems to me that the view which [Murray] Gell-Mann favours, and which involves what he calls alternative 'histories' or 'narratives', is precisely as anthropocentric as Bohr's, since histories and narratives are not freestanding elements of the Universe, but human constructs, as subjective and as restricted in their viewpoint as the act of observation."

Physicists shy from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental Universe is to invoke 'decoherence' — the notion that 'the physical environment' is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in 'Renninger-type' experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The Universe is entirely mental.

In the tenth century, Ibn al-Haytham initiated the view that light proceeds from a source, enters the eye, and is perceived. This picture is incorrect but is still what most people think occurs, including, unless pressed, most physicists. To come to terms with the Universe, we must abandon such views. The world is quantum mechanical: we must learn to perceive it as such.

One benefit of switching humanity to a correct perception of the world is the resulting joy of discovering the mental nature of the Universe. We have no idea what this mental nature implies, but — the great thing is — it is true. Beyond the acquisition of this perception, physics can no longer help. You may descend into solipsism, expand to deism, or something else if you can justify it — just don't ask physics for help.

There is another benefit of seeing the world as quantum mechanical: someone who has learned to accept that nothing exists but observations is far ahead of peers who stumble through physics hoping to find out 'what things are'. If we can 'pull a Galileo,' and get people believing the truth, they will find physics a breeze.

The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy.

FURTHER READING

Marburger, J. On the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics http://www.ostp.gov/html/Copenhagentalk.pdf (2002).

Henry, R. C. Am. J. Phys. 58, 1087−1100 (1990).

Steiner, M. The Applicability of Mathematics as a Philosophical Problem (Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge, MA, 1998).



  Anand Nair posted 3 yrs ago

0oo0 quotes from the article:-

"The team say their experiment provides the first evidence that the second law of thermodynamics is violated at appreciable time and length scales. "

The maximum time was 2 seconds. What is significant about this experiment was the stretching of the time limit, compared to earlier experiments. It is not even CLAIMED by the experimenters that the second law of thermodynamics has been falsified (or needs to be reconsidered as a result of this)..

The existence of such "limits" where the law breaks down (at whatever level) is as predicted by thermodynamics.

"Their results are also in good agreement with predictions of the "fluctuation theorem"..."

And the "fluctuation theorem" does NOT claim to falsify second law of thermodynamics. This theorem (applicable at atomic scales) itself is consistent with thermodynamics.

"The results imply that the fluctuation theorem has important ramifications for nanotechnology and indeed for how life itself functions", claim the researchers"

Yes. That is right. But NOT if it is suggested that this has knocked off (or is about to knock off) the material basis of life functions -- including consciousness. The trend is just the reverse.

asnair@gmail.com



  Anand Nair posted 3 yrs ago

I fully agree with Que Cera Cera, "Till then, what the materialists have is but a HYPOTHESIS that is favored by science (for whatever reasons), and NOT A FACT; lets be clear about that."

Absolutely so.

asnair@gmail.com



  Que Cera Cera posted 3 yrs ago

>>"Materialists who passionately believe that life is made up of assemblage of non-living particles just have to do one thing. They should just show abinitio in a lab an assembly of non-living particles coming to life. "
----------------------------------
Yes.
Till then, what the materialists have is but a HYPOTHESIS that is favored by science (for whatever reasons), and NOT A FACT; lets be clear about that.



  gangp posted 3 yrs ago

Materialists who passionately believe that life is made up of assemblage of non-living particles just have to do one thing. They should just show abinitio in a lab an assembly of non-living particles coming to life.



  oO0Oo . posted 3 yrs ago

nair Saab,
Read this carefully: "The team say their experiment provides the first evidence that the second law of thermodynamics is violated at appreciable time and length scales.

Their results are also in good agreement with predictions of the "fluctuation theorem", a theory developed at ANU 10 years ago to reconcile the second law with the behaviour of particles at microscopic scales.

"The results imply that the fluctuation theorem has important ramifications for nanotechnology and indeed for how life itself functions", claim the researchers"




  Anand Nair posted 3 yrs ago

Let me quote from the New Scientist link -

"To the limit Physicists knew that at atomic scales, over very short periods of time, statistical mechanics is pushed beyond its limit, and the second law does not apply. Put another way, situations that break the second law become much more probable. "

Thus it is ONLY "over very short periods of time" that order can possibly increase.

Order conservation becomes less and less probable as the period of time increases. Even at human time scales (as opposed to atomic scales) this law has NEVER been observed to be violated. This is so rare a contingency that this is regarded as IMPOSSIBLE by science -- for all practical purposes.

This becomes increasingly even LESS LIKELY as the time scale is further increased to astronomical or cosmic level. Which is why the postulate of an ETERNAL atman or brahman is discounted by science.

PS. This demo elegantly showed something Science already knew (for the last over 100 years). This did not constitute a conceptual breakthrough, or a revolutionary break from the earlier theory.

Hence this did not make the person eligible for the Nobel Prize.

asnair@gmail.com





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