Saving Indian Universities

Aug 15 2003  | Views 4714 |  Comments  (29)
Although development is measured through the index of economic prosperity, it means the capacity of people to make reasoned, independent choices and corresponding action. It means a development of the spirit out of which emerges material development and this requires an excellent system of education. ... Expand

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  winner winner posted 5 yrs ago

Ha Ha Ha! Nicely said Narayanan! Looks like this McBool guy is a desi who is desperately trying to prove some wacko points.. must be a gult.. because no one can know of Guntur so easily..



  Narayanan Komerath posted 5 yrs ago

As I understand, dear mcbool, universities are set up to educate people, not to produce people. Baby-making technology is available elsewhere. :)



  Narayanan Komerath posted 5 yrs ago

One more comment: The best administrator I have met is probably Mr. Kurian, the IAS officer who initiated and led the effort to build the Kochi International Airport at Nedbumbassery. He told me he was a "generalist", but I could see that he was aware of, and understood very well, all the issues related to a very complex technical, economic, administrative and political undertaking. Against the immense "nah-nah-nah-nah!" cynicism and obstruction of Kerala, and the obstruction of assorted "Bombay lobbies" etc., that airport is operating, and growing. And that is primarily due to the genius of this one man. It turned out, of course, that he had a biology or biochemistry degree from - u guessed it - an Indian university !!!! In a "perfect" world with a "relevant" curriculum matched to industrial demand, he would have been recruited straight from school to work in the depths of some Research Lab!!!! Its a wonderful world. :)



  Narayanan Komerath posted 5 yrs ago

Professor Kak's main points are: 1. "As an aspiring technological Great Power, India must be prepared also in the fields that lie at the intersection of technology, society, and commerce. The decisions by those who understand the dynamics of technological change are often as important, if not more, than those who implement the technology." 2. The IITs for example, have focused on undergraduate education, but have not attained prominence in graduate education - and perhaps research. 3. Curricula should perhaps be constantly revised for relevance. 4. Faculty hiring should promote intellectual diversity. 5. The proliferation of engineering colleges has helped the mobility and success of people. 6. The UK rating scheme.. *********************************** Excellent points. A few comments: 1. I don't agree that UK is an example to follow - but that may have a bit to do with personal feelings. Right now, my experience is that graduates from the premier German or French engineering institutions leave any UK graduates I've seen, in the dust. The best from the IITs are as good or better than these, but as I mentioned before, there is no need to assume that the present-day general IIT product is uniformly excellent. Never was. The best from PRC or Japan are also superb. All in different ways. But anyway, UK is not an example to emulate. 2. In the past (and present) Indian curricula have suffered from the equivalent of the Indian Rope Trick - the Indian system provides this climbing rope where students must focus their attention from Age 4 all the way to Age 22 on exams, more exams, books, "tuition", more exams... and then??? The graduate wakes up one fine morning, feeling at the top of the world for having got excellent "marks" in this British-inspired system, and discovers that there is no workplace demand for the knowledge so hard-earned. One result is that most Indians one sees, in any profession, appear to have basic science or engineering degrees. Pressed in arguments, they demonstrate quite a vast knowledge of technical matters - but the integration of that knowledge "clicks" into place only when they are given the chance to see where it applies. It has been well-demonstrated that students who graduate from Indian quantitative programs like science and engineering, have the BASIC knowledge to excel in nearly anything, be it engineering, medicine, management, law or anything else. Only our politics seems immune to quantitative logic or analysis. But all this may be changing with the advent of massive investment and opportunities for quantitative-knowledge-based industries in India, so there may be no "saving" needed - there is enough internal pressure to revise curricula at the undergrad level, to become relevant. One thing we've never lacked is competition to drive innovation. 3. The IITs and graduate research. The answer here is very simple: $$ and opportunities, plus an utterly humiliating, benighted system. The former points are obvious - a professor in a major US engineering school may make, say, well over the "middle class" income level, more than the salary of almost any engineer in any industry or government organization. Only VP-level execs make more. Can you say the same about India? If not, why would those who spend their lives striving to beat worldwide competition, not aspire to win at this too? The solution is not to match US salaries in India - but salaries for top professors and researchers should be de-linked from "central" or other payscales, and be set to compete without restraint for the best people. The other side of this coin is that in the US, a university does not really lose anything by giving its professors big $$ - the expectation is that Professor X must "bring in" around 3 times his/her salary in external $$ every year. In the "top-ranked" places, the expectation is more like 4 to 5 times. That's not "consultancy" that goes in the professor's pocket - but research funds with "overhead" at some 50 to 60%, so just the overhead easily pays the professor's salary with plenty left over -and gets his/her courses taught for free. Once this model is adopted, of course, the price paid is the inattention to undergraduate education - as is seen in US universities. In the best places, the "solution" for this is simply: "Don't tell us how busy you are with research, or how you bring in all those dollars, or how internationally famous you are. We all do the same, so, hey, you WILL teach 3 or 4 courses per year, and advise a lot of undergrads, and you will NOT delegate teaching to your assistants etc." I won't claim that this system is great - just that it works, well, about as well as it works in US universities. Someone should also look at the death rate of professors from heart attack and blood pressure to see the other part of this. No more "summer vacations". No more "sabbaticals". As for artificial constraints on faculty hiring, the best universities long ago discovered that such things are counterproductive, while the medicore ones stick to such ancient notions of "pedigree" and "Our Way of Doing Things". Look at the faculty of, say, MIT. Dominated by MIT PhDs. And why not? Would you reject the best grads of the best place in the world, and instead bring in someone who would probably not have got admitted as a student there? The best California universities (Stanford, Berkeley, CalTech) simply exchange graduates. No great "diversity" in hiring is achieved by that, but it keeps down the noise. The REAL issue in hiring one's own graduates is that it may create "centers of political power" inside individual schools. That again is a function of the school's culture, and the excellence of the senior faculty. One solution is usually to make clear to the new hire that continuing to work in the same old area is a sure way to be denied promotion and tenure, however "unfair" that may sound. It is not such a great idea to suggest that someone that good is "inbred" or cannot "bring in fresh ideas". Every PhD at a really good institution is completely different from any other - that's why they get PhDs for those efforts. If there is anything cloned from the professor in those efforts, its the culture of being different, and of adapting the best ideas from anyone, worldwide. Obviously, there has to be some balance... , and even the MIT appears to be beginning to recognize, rather belatedly, that one should never hire someone whom one does not plan to nurture to lifelong success. A dog-eat-dog environment simply breeds cannibalistic dogs and rat races breed rats. So - maybe Indian universities don't need "saving" so much as they need ongoing processes for encouragement in directions which are decided by careful, well-reasoned discussion. Best regards narayanan



  Narayanan Komerath posted 5 yrs ago

My earlier comment appears to have vanished. I wanted the author's or others' comments on why privatizing IITs is a good idea. I can't see the logic there. The IITs have an unmatched record of national impact, with a very controlled size of the graduating class, inside a very few years - there is almost no other institution which can come close in comparable impact per graduate, or impact per $$ spent. In the US, I look at the latest "US News & World Report" ranking of programs. True, the M.I.T. and Stanford, both private entities, rank right up there in many engineering/science categories as well as in business. BUT.... at a tuition cost which is stratospheric compared to most State institutions. What is interesting to me is how close several state universities and institutes of technology come - with fees less than a tenth of what MIT and Stanford charge, and with compulsions to admit a far wider spectrum of students. There is no doubt in my mind that the old IIT tradition of picking students based on sheer merit is excellent. (OK, I'll admit to serious concerns about this criterion since the advent of "Brilliant Tutorials"..). A system where the Director's son could not get in.. and no power or wealth or influence mattered one bit. In India, are there comparable achievements by private institutions? Can BITS, for example, cite similar achievements? I don't think so. Given the above, I would suggest emulating the IIT system in many more colleges, with the same tough insistence on quality, respect for merit, and unstinted support for resources, as well as total freedom from political meddling. In turn, these institutions must develop their own demanding, but absolutely fair, systems for admission, hiring, tenure, promotion and retirement. Private institutions bring their own huge baskets of problems.



  Thats me posted 5 yrs ago

Satish Shenoy: Nicely said. But unfortunately, I'm seeing that scenario in the corporate world even in the US. Other than companies which are involved in cut-throat technological innovations, most of the normal companies are infested with the so-called managers who other than carrying a bunch of project plans and ticking and tallying the totals, do nothing. They have a great talent of adhering to their seats and somehow blaming others for everything that goes wrong. This type of people are particularly seen in groups like MIS/Support/Product Management wherein the job load is usually less or monotonous than in other departments. Sometimes it is depressing to know that a talented individual is just wasting his/her time because of all this corporate politics. After seeing that, I stopped blaming only politicians for the playing politics.. even sportsmen, corporate kids and movie starts play it very well:)



  Satish Shenoy posted 5 yrs ago

While Universities, including the IITs should be overhauled to place emphasis in higher education and research, we should not forget the need for reform in the corporate world. How many times have we seen brilliant people from the IITs or other institutions, stagnating intellecually, once they land up jobs in the corporate sector (public or private). Who can blame them? The Indian corporate world is infested with paranoid and ego-centric managers, who cannot tolerate the slightest hint of 'disrespect' from their juniors, both real or imagined. As a result this mindset, a junior professional who comes up with an innovative idea, keeps it to himself, for fear of stepping over the toes of his bosses. Even the smartest graduate from the IITs has to rely more on his skills to 'ji huzoor' rather than on his professional expertise, if he hopes to make it to the higher echelons of management. Your subordinate, who comes up with that briliant idea, could at least end up stealing the limelight, if not displace you. Thus, we have a system where innovation is not neglected - it is penalised. If we have to be in the same league as the West, we will need to shed the mindset, where individual egos are considered more important than the welfare of a corporation or nation or a society. The public sector can take the lead by shortening the corporate pyramid, thus placing more responsibility at the junior levels. Also it may help if we ape the US in certain matters, like doing away with age limits for civilian jobs. This step, besides giving vibrancy to the job market, will unleash a vast pool of talent.



  Narayanan Komerath posted 5 yrs ago

I tried to read the comments on this thread to see what was being discussed about Indian universities. I should have known better. Here's a sample - of course from the great Educator "McBoob" or "McFool" or something like that. I doubt that the postor is an Irish Catholic, but he/she/it may fancy itself as being the intellectual equal of a hamburger patty. A Paki madarssa PhD, in other words. ********************************** ""PROJECT MANAGER " HIB visa WE are cancelling your stay you know .. Which 3rd clas quality company for sake of 1/10 th cost CUT ..give nincompops like you a JOB ..not wanted like the communicable diseases in india aids leprosy tb malaria hepatitis ...cesspool of ill health !!!!" It should be perfectly clear that this is a person whose brain, if any, is seriously infected with hatred towards all civilized society. A sure sign of a Paki terrorist. From "we" and "H1B visa" I assume that this postor infests the USA. I am requesting Sulekha personnel to please support law enforcement and prevent a future tragedy by finding out who this postor is, and reporting the same to US Homeland Security. Its easy to find the addresses where you can do the reporting. The US is infested with tens of thousands of criminal Paki terrorists - and the authorities are trying their best to find these while causing minimal harassmant to the 3 or 4 law-abiding Pakistanis also living here. Your help will be appreciated by all. The lives you save may include your own. Thank you. It continues to be a shame that Sulekha's discussion fora are suffering the equivalent of the "SoBig" virus cluttering up every thread. If this is not stopped, I guess its time to quit wasting time trying to participate in discussions here.



  Jalansaab posted 5 yrs ago

McBool Ji Please write when you are sober again. Till then, you can let the poor keyboard rest - you neither have control over your fingers as the typos show nor over your mind as your comments show... Thanks



  Thats me posted 5 yrs ago

Translation not good.. Self-translation by McBool sucks!!!You better make Pakistan your home, son.





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