Pakistan's Moment Of Truth

Mar 13 2003  | Views 4824 |  Comments  (153)
If Pakistan is not able to get on track, other powers may be compelled to step in. This is the moment Pakistan needs a sagacious and strong leader. I don't think Musharraf is the man, given the errors of his past ways and how he is still betting on both sides in the War on Terror. He has great flaws of character, he lies by habit (as in Kargil or the Daniel Pearl murder), and his policy of pushing the jihadis into Kashmir make his hands ... Expand

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  FightFascism posted 5 yrs ago

Ive been away for awhile, there were some posts here I intended to respond to. Better late than never. I simply could not allow the level of hatred and prejudice to go unopposed. HinduUnity, "I can criticize my culture and religion and still live to see tomorrow’s lights. Can you???? THE FIGHT AGAINST FASCISM STARTS FROM MECCA AND MEDINA" Can you really?? Try telling that to the Dalits that were LYNCHED in Hariyana, or to those that get beaten fatally for drinking water from another well daily. I agree Saudi Arabia needs reformation....so do a good many in India. Lets begin in Mecca and end in villages all over India?? hundreds of thousands of villages are still home to the evils of social stratification, all this in 2003. satyameva jayate, " “All of you have justified the killings of 3 year old babies” into something that all of us have been thru’. Thereby trying to elevate yourself onto a moral high ground! Dividing the ground into two – for and against does not serve any useful purpose. And by stating that people who disagree with you are justifying murder of innocent babies is indicative of you abusing raw emotions to dissuade people from taking a position contrary to yours." Do you need to be on a higher moral ground to condemn the killings of babies??? Don't try and sugarcoat anything that happened in Gujarat. Allow your conscience to understand the attrocities as they happened. All of it was brutal, barabaric, and vicious. Babies were burned to death, women were raped, men were burned alive, others were cut into pieces. ALL OF THEM WHO DIED WERE INNOCENT, HINDUS and MUSLIMS. You cannot condone violence against innocent people and expect there to be a just solution, especially when the government is responsible for much of the violence. Whatever happened to accountability??? "Violence is bad. There should be peace on earth. Crusades were bad. Wars were/are bad. Islamic terrorism is bad. Islamic rape of Indian civilization is bad. Godhra was bad. Gujarat riots were bad." Funny, you don't mention crimes commited by Hindus, was castesim good???? Is reducing human to rubble good for society?? Was the looting of Hindu Temples by Hindu rulers good?? Was the massacre of 5 k sikhs in 1984 good?? Why is your history restricted to include only those that aren't Hindu??? I see it as an Indian problem, it involes Muslims just as much as it involves Hindus. "For all the statements that you have typed, I am yet to see one where you have said that the muslims will take steps to break the cycle of violence." Passing trishuls around India, is taking steps to peace(VHP)??? The steps have to be taken across the board by all of us. I am open to the idea of discussing the uniform civil code, while at the same time the BJP wants to ban beef all across the country. Is that taking steps in the right direction, it may get you elected, but is it better for pluraism in our country??? "All this confirms the general view that a muslim, whether in Palestine or patna is one and the same and is driven by the same engine of ideology." You dont do your argument justice by relating Palestine to Patna, there is a reason the UN has passed over 60 resolutions against Israel. If anything, the creation of Pakistan is a lot like that of Israel, from their religion represented on their flag...to their laws that exhbit favoritism. "Godhra was the cause – Gujarat riots were the effect. Period. If you would like to dig back and say Ayodhya was the cause for Godhra, hindus would dig back to the babri memorial as the cause for ayodhya." And again, not only have you justified the murder of babies, men, and women, you have also made it clear that Hindus were never to blame. Riots aren't new to India, they've errupted time and time again before the Babri Masjid was ever an issue. You cannot claim higher moral ground, by saying they cast the first stone..because by butchering innocent people to death, YOU TOO are just as much responsible, your cause is not relevant at that point. 2000 years ago, your logic did prevail, it doesn't apply anymore...not to the civilized world anyway. Everytime riots errupt, its because of intolerance that takes over the will of people, and more importantly because "PEOPLE" justify the killings of innocents. The problem is saying that the act of killing innocent people, this is no vigilante justice, majority of the people are innocent and usually overpowered 20-1, is ok. Do you know how Hinduism has treated Bhuddists in India??? Or within Hinduism, you must be aware of the treatment of Dalits. Would it be ok...if today, many years later, the Dalits went out and started to exact justice and resorted to riots??? Would they be right in doing so????? "Whether the Godhra massacre was planned by the muslims – YES Whether the Gujarat riots were spontaneous – YES Whether the Gujarat riots that followed were necessary –YES" Personally, I don't think the riots were spontaneous..nor was that much innocent bloodshed necessary(nothing spontaneous about having voter registration information). So it was necessary to kill completely innocent people, destroy their property, their businesses, people that had absolutely nothing to do with the horrific events of Godhra? All this to serve as a reminder, to people that never really cared about the consequenes in the first place....and to people that had aboslutely nothing to do with it???? You don't see a problem here? The aftermath that you've justified only functions to create more hatred amongst our people. As a result..people have lost their livelyhoods, their relatives, many have seen their own butchered to death in front of them. Who should they rightfully..blame???? People 600 years ago, as you claim, or the person who lit the match in front of them?? The blame won't stop there though...because like you, they too will blame the community, and anyone within that community would then become a legitimate target. All of this is supposed to infuse fear you say??? Fear may have been infused, so has rage...and hatred, and it doesnt take much to take that hatred a step further. Who gets the last laugh, how many more should die??? They cycle of violence itself, should be condemned, and so should governments that support it...or help continue it. "What has to be answered is whether the general situation would have been better off without this retaliation? The answer for which is a big No! More godhras would have followed within no time, but for the retaliation. The line has been drawn and the muslims have been shown the limits of hindu tolerance." Do you really think so?? Or have we now see barbarism..injustice (government commited), and massacres now committed at levels never seen before in modern times?? I dont think thats going to make us more safe. People are dead in the thousands, the ones who are alive...their lives have been ruined, properties and businesses have been destroyed....it isn't security, but insecurity that has been created. Tolerance across the board isn't reached by creating an intolerant and more importantly barbarically ruthless society. "Note that 58 lives lost savagely in the Godhra massacre and the 1000 hindu lives lost in the resultant Gujarat riots have never been highlighted by our traitorous media. Also note that the massacre of lakhs of kashmiri hindus and their evacuation from Kashmir was not given even a tenth of the air, print and video time that has been given to the muslims of Gujarat" Well than make noise about the media, I have no objection to that. What I do have a problem with is you saying killing innocent people is ok and whats worse is that you say its necessary. Its never necessary to burn a 3 year old to death. "And would prefer an unconditional answer to it. Did you people utter one statement in the context of lakhs of kashmiri hindus slaughtered by Islamic militants – in the name of Allah and Mohammad? Did you people utter any statement wrt to rule of law and govt. functioning when millions of hindus were driven out" It was wrong....all of it was wrong, how can that make killing innocent people in Gujarat right????? How can you hold the people in Gujarat responsible???? What happened in Kashmir was also a failure of our government...hold them responsible, the government has the responsibility of protecting our lives and our property, don't hold the Hindu or Muslim in Kerela responsible for not saying anything. Although, personally, I do believe that we owe it to our country to speak up against injustice....each and everyone of us, everywhere. "And even if you people were to put down and condemn the mufti govt. for his past sins now, even that is not enough. Since it is superficial. And a conditional one. You are doing it NOW under the pretext of the Gujarat riots. So, there lies your hypocrisy exposed to the whole world." First of all, everytime you generalize, you do yourself a disservice and paint a picture that is not very representative of all of us. I condemn injustices everywhere, be it Kashmir or Gujarat. Your position though of holding a grudge, is a self defeating one. Its never too late to work for peace, reconciliation, and a better India. "An honest and unbiased look into the mirror will answer most of your questions." Right, an honest...and more importantly a COMPLETE picture, dont just see what you want to see..the picture is quite broad. "And while you have every right to disagree with me, please cut out the emotional stuff like “supporters of murder of babies” and associated superlatives to those who disagree with you. I owe it to those innocent babies, women, and men that have been targetted out of vengence, hate, and prejudice to let their voices be heard. Maybe if it was your baby you'd think differently?? Or would it have been necessary then too?? Dont insult their deaths by justifying it...it only functions to support their murderers.



  quizno posted 5 yrs ago

Nice article but it fails to address the core issue behind Kashmir -- water. Pakistani Punjab is the largest man made irrigation system in the world and it depends 90% on waters from 3 rivers. All three rivers originate from Kashmir. There are 4 factors making this situation worse: 1. The amt of water coming down has decreased year-year for some unknown reason 2. The dams (Mangala and Tarbela) have huge silt and have year-year lower holding capacity 3. The canals are not lined and seepage and water logging are huge problems in Punjab. Also, chemical fertilisers have increased soil salinity 4. Population is increasing uncurbed. The people in these lands will migrate and they can only migrate to lands with water and there isn't enough in Baluchistan or Sindh. Pakistan needs Kashmir for its future food. Twenty years from now, I predict that there will be more Punjabis in POK than Kashmiris. The Vale of Indian Kashmir is an important "flat land" capable of producing a huge percentage of food for Pakistan. Now, you know the rest of the story!



  FightFascism posted 5 yrs ago

"Its scary to see the Indian adminstration sit on their butts and not make any serious moves on the diplomatic front." The government is busy participating in yatras...



  krish1899 posted 5 yrs ago

Nice article but Pakistan's downfall has been predicted before but I think the military regime needs to be given the credit they deserve. I believe the Indian population in general and the Indian govt. especially the foriegn services has not clearly understood how play of geopolitics that have allowed Pakistan to survive and moreover thrive considering their weaknesses ( no industrial educational infrastructure etc.). Further its machinery is so pysched against India that the threat that they might do serious damage to India as they are going down needs to be seriously considered. If Pakistan's society is like a bomb on a fuse India needs to put in checks to prevent it detonating on its face. I feel that the Indian govt. is not doing that and rather having a hands-off approach for which we might have to pay a heavy price. Pakistan on the other hand has managed to balance out its ambitions ( kashmir) and the geopolitical situation fantastically well. It has managed to remain an ally of both China and the U.S.A inspite of harming their interests quite flagrantly. It armed N.Korea with nukes which I am sure the chinese dont like and has/is sheltering terrorists that bother US. The Indian foreign services on the other hand have completly lost on the diplomatic front with both US and China. Its scary to see the Indian adminstration sit on their butts and not make any serious moves on the diplomatic front.



  FightFascism posted 5 yrs ago

Raj Mehta, Regarding Dalits... From the Human Rights Watch. ----- While the government allocated equal amounts of monetary compensation and food supplies to members of all communities, Dalit (so-called untouchable) and Muslim populations did not have the same access to adequate shelter, electricity, running water, and other supplies available to others. Upper-caste families in Kutch refused to live alongside Dalits in temporary settlements built by Rapid Action Forces. As a result, hundreds of tents lay empty while Dalits were required to live in makeshift shelters. ----------------- Heres a report for the UN done by the Human Rights Watch. http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/globalcaste/



  FightFascism posted 5 yrs ago

"Historically, muslims have been the most treacherous of all religions." You reall should study what other people have done with other religions. You should start with India. "Remember how Vijaynagar king, Rama Raya, was duped by sultan terrorists" Is this all you remember??? I really don't think contribution to Hindu organizations was the problem. It was the misallocation of funds, not that that is a problem either....people are free to contribute to their political affiliations. Its just that they and their matching donors should know what political cause their money is going towards.



  FightFascism posted 5 yrs ago

Rao, "If there really is such a movement brewing below the surface of our "unity among diversity" then there is a definite impending doom of our entire culture and its people." Its probably an exaggeration, things aren't as bad as they seem on that site. Not that we don't have issues to deal with.....we do. Personally, I believe that more emphasis should be placed on education.



  FightFascism posted 5 yrs ago

Austin, "It is not an accomplishment at all. The malaysian government has decided to accept economic inefficiency to promote social peace. It is extremely disingenuous to pass it off as an accomplishment." Economic inefficiency?? You'll have to prove that too me, just words will not do your position justice. In 20 years, they've acheived remakable results....their per capita income is now close to $10,000 per year, that isn't very inefficient if you ask me. You know what else??????? The Chinese community has prospered too. And as for your concerns with programs such as affirmitive action, you have a problem trying to make the field even?? Usually its the poor that benefit, and if programs are initiated to bridge the income levels, whats wrong with it???



  chaitanya rao posted 5 yrs ago

Hi All, This is a little out of place...but I just happened to hit this site called www.dalitstan.org Im shocked by the contents. If there really is such a movement brewing below the surface of our "unity among diversity" then there is a definite impending doom of our entire culture and its people. Please take a moment to go through this site. It seems to be a Tamil plus Christain movement. Im a firm believer in nationalism (now go define that) i.e. from my perspective a strong and united India above the concept of regional unity. Hence I found this site very disturbing.



  Mark McHugh posted 5 yrs ago

I find it surprising why so many Hindus must respond to fanatic fundamentalist muslims who are objecting to your money going to your loved ones - they may be terrorists, for all you know or terrorist supporters, planning another plane into a bldg in NYC or your own tall bldg. Watch out for HAMIR, ZAFAR and all their ilk!! they are brainwashing simple Hindus to dole out money to nonHindu's!! You can surely think. You can decide who the villain is. Not the Hindus, surely!!..! Historically, muslims have been the most treacherous of all religions. Most betraying type - full of hate. Other hate mongers have joined them now. You have suffered enough - many 100's of sept-11 type terrorist attacks. Now wake up!! Remember how Vijaynagar king, Rama Raya, was duped by sultan terrorists; how Jinah duped Gandhi and took only a few fanatics and never gave you peace or harmony. Contribute liberally only to HINDU organizations not the mixed or mixed-up ones like that of Mathew or whatever his name is. These are undermining Hindu solidarity and unity. Poverty is the result of 30 billion wasted on islamic militants. Children of all religions are dying. But more Hindu children suffer pretty much as orphans, since they are the neglected ones. Others get money from ARABIA or Christian missionaries. Worse, the admin overhead was proved to be more than 50% !! Some christian is pocketing your money!!!..! Here in USA, people were warned not give to Christian organizations blindly - especially to tel -evangelists. We got the warning on main network TV here in USA!!





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